[ENG] [Deck] 3C-Control 2007 - Lupo-Pelo-Vizio

MaxxMatt

Feel free to add here any contents, list and hint about this STRONG and UNDERESTIMATED deck.

Both Zherbus, me and a lot of *old school paragon of vintage* worked hard ( at least 1.5 years ago ) on this deck.
On the other hand, at now, excluding some bad sinergies against a few opponents, this deck is a blast to play and perform really well.

Why opt for 3c or 4c?
Nothing more than style and metagame will help you decide.

This is my most recent ( hidden until now Wink) list I played IRL.
Feel free ( expecially Zherbus and all the past 3c-c champions ) to add their innovations here.

Mana (2)(4)
9 Artifact Mana ( no Vault )
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Protections (12)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Mindtwist

Board Control (6)
3 Repeal
1 Time Walk
1 Balance

Drawers & Tutor (1)(4)
4 Brainstorm
4 Skeletal Scrying
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

Winners (4)
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Decree of Justice
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard (1)(5)
4 Chalice of the Void / Meddling Mage
2 Sacred Ground
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sundering Titan
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gush
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Echoing Truth

Enjoy ... and faaaar more important...Welcome Back to the Past! Wink

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Cita:

- Running mana crypt is a bit questionable. The kill conditions in the deck, baring the quick tinker games, are not very fast. Couple that with the 4 skeletal scrying scrying and it seems like the deck puts itself at unnecessary risk. The addition of mana crypt doesn't seem particularly crucial either considering the highest casting cost category is four (excluding DSC) with only one card (fact or fiction). It's true that there are 10 cards with X in the casting cost, but taking into account what the cards actually are (4 repeal, 4 scrying, 1 mind twist, 1 DoJ), only 6 of them will be cast where X may be more than 2 in a normal game.

Crypts risks are real, but I added it because of possibly good Skeletal-Repeal interactions. I have tons of way to bounce back Crypt when it can become a pain, while it let me have an additional boost for largeer Skeletals since my first turns and it is a good way to auto-create a target for my own Repeals in which matchups where they can be easily cicled, feeding grave and letting you see more cards.

I realize how slow DoJ is compared to other killing conditions months ago, but, keeping white maindeck, I flet the need to optimize it as much as I can. DoJ + Balance are still two must have in a control deck if you are going to play the *Control* role. DoJ isn't small or slow during the midgame. The deck can develop a good amount of mana during the match and DoJ can both feed Angels or Soldier for a 2-turn-kills. Duresses and Mindtwist let me keep ToA in touch. There are really fewer deck that could produce so much selfdamage such as this one: I HAVE to discard from their own hands both Tutors and ToAs as soon as I can. If I can constantly accomplish this goal, both Skeletals damages and slow winners aren't that much crucial: I have tons of cards in hand and tools to deal with any non-storm threat.

Cita:

- Running 3 flooded strand and 3 polluted delta is the wrong configuration; it should be 4 delta and X strand. The decklist contains a basic swamp, therefore 4 delta should be a requirement

That's my bad. I don't correct my manabase according to the last addition made: Swamp. Thanks for the hint.

Cita:

- Running crucible of worlds in the sideboard doesn't seem very impressive in this deck. Even if the decklist were modified to include a strip mine in place of the mana crypt, the level of synergy isn't very impressive to include it in the sideboard. Including it maindeck with 2-3 wasteland or not playing it at all seems to be better.

You are true on this issue, CoW is one of the *so-so* cards added to sideboard. There is, indeed, a logic behind this choice: I wanted to both add more Tinker targets with
different porpouses and add another way to stop Fish or MW.dec to possibly lock you. As you can easily see, aside mana and lands, the deck doesn't produce permanents at all. I will enable me to possibly *escape* from fast lock in the largest variety of possible ways. I added both Sacred Ground and CoW, but I can switch S.Ground#2 for PithingNeedle#1, for the same porpouses too. If there will not be a better choice, I will leave CoW in, especially if I will be able to put a Stripmine somewhere... It isn't the *best* winning plan of the deck, but it is a strong possibility to simply autowin, slower matches ( CotVs + CoW+ Strip + Duresses ).

Cita:

Why play this deck over any others? Especially in today's Meta which is dominated in large part by Gifts, Fish, and Combo? Gifts packs a similar array of disruption in the form of FoW, Mana Drain, Duress etc... (not always together) with a better card drawer namely Gifts which allows the player to win now... Fish is aggro (which traditionally beats control which is a reason exalted angels were added to old lists) and packs stp to deal with DSC if u get him out.... and Combo is combo which, although may be tough, can often force their game plan through and prevent your disruption through their own duress/FoW...
In essence, I don't understand why you took a list that looks similar to Gifts, added in a lot of repeal, balance, mindtwist and take out scrolls/gifts which are great draw engines that provide a signifant clock to compete against aggro as well as a way to find specific answers/cards when need be and expect it to be viable...

Sorry, but, even with the kindest intent of the world, I cannot see any significative similarity with Gifts.
Or... if yuo see similarities and are going to comparise those two decks because of *some cards in common*, you will be able to refer to ANY control deck as a *Gifts deck without cards X, cards Y and so on..."

This deck have 6/7Drawers and 4/5Duresses and both hand control and board control.
Gifts have a pletora of Tutors, and a lot of ways to pull out as effectively as it can, or 10-spells and a ToA or 20-tokens and a Walk.

On the other hand, while totally different, this decks can be preferred to Gifts itself for several reasons.
-Heavy hand control, let you castigate combo decks better than with Gifts
-CotVs or M.Mages, coupled with the rest of the deck, will even leave fewer space for victories to both Combo and Control-Combo decks in general
-Balance, Decree and Repeals, coupled with Duresses and Drains are good way to set up *Controllish* victories against Aggro and AggroControl decks. I don't mention TPC against them, only because it isn't *politically correct*. On the other hand, its effectiveness is stellar, even nowadays

-Control-Combo decks, a large part of the field, will be kept in touch with ease playing this deck: you will Duress them first, then Drain out things, then thin the deck in some way with Repeals/BS/Fetches and Draw tons of cards with Skeletals. This partial *control* will be reiterated unitl DoJ or TPC can be tutored for the win. Setting up wins in this way, is really SOLID, difficultly hatable and opponents cannot *rise* winning percentages against you post side with *some new sideboard spell* because you don't rely on nothing particulary.
-Stability and not-Red-able spells are KEY ways to possibly win.

Those arguments can apply to Gifts.dec too, but almost POST side and with this GREATER difference: they are going to win anyway when Gifts will set up victories and their grave *can* be crucial ( depending on the player piloting the deck ). 3C-C doesn't rely on special-effects-Kaboom to win. It simply... put pressure, draw cards and then, when needed ... win .. and in NO particular order!!!.

Cita:

In other words, while I understand the viability of 3c and 4c control... I agree with zherbus that they ahve to be metagamed correctly to not only avoid splash hate but also so that they can work on his little 4 step planning system... The problem is that this version doesn't seem viable b/c you are using arguably a worse draw engine, to achieve the same win condition, and are packing a minimal differenc in disruption.

Take into account I read your entire post, agree with some parts but, the conclusions quoted really destabilize me a lot.
The list proposed here, isn't written in stone, is mine approach to that game-design and it performs *well* ( for what *Well* means, I FULLY FULLY FULLY remand you on Zherbus arguments: This list performs really well with me. I'll hope you all can have the same good result, I'm having now with it ), with results being totally dependent on playskills' players and foresighting sideboard adaptations. I'm really astonished AGAIN on the comparisation with Gifts.

Drain + FoW + Mis-D arent' equal AT ALL to Drain + FoW + Duresses
No M.Scroll + Repeals + C.Wish + Balance aren't equal AT ALL to M.Scroll + Chain + H.Recall
Skeletals + Restricted aren't equal to Gifts + Restricted
TPC + DoJ are different from ToA + EtW

Why, on hearth, are you ALL going to compare those DIFFERENT knd of decks?
Have you compared Tog to Keeper in the past?
Is Tog, Keeper without Green and White and with other drawers and other winning conditions? ...of course... NO!

I'm not saying that there aren't similar components, playing Gifts or 3c-c, but THEIR OWN projection onto the game is COMPLETELY different.

3C.C is proactive as soon as he can with disruptions, it can sit down a bit in order to maximize drawers and counters and then it can reiterate those sequences until it can win.

Gifts is proactive as soon as he can with tutors, it can't sit down too much in order to maximize drawers and counters and it try to kill with his sequence of bombs+counterspell as soon as it can.

That said, if I start first, I can Duress M.Scroll or Gifts away, leave them resolve BS+Fetch, leave them gain quality again while I'll surf through my deck with EoT spells.
Duresses are really good to disrupt solid but NOT flexible decks. As much as Balance and Mindtwist are ( the latter after a Duress' check is deadly ).
Skeletals aren't Blastable and my only regret against Control.Combo are their own broken hands, against which, really few decks can say to survive.
These are different thoughts from yours, but both of us can be true in the right game situation: I'm sure about my opponents as much you are sure of yours.
More, I'm sure to be able to play this deck near perfectly. So I can be sure of being able to foresight the worst game scenario, avoiding auto-lose.
I'm going to describe things in a better shape.

Against Fish, I tend to gain time thanks to Repeals and Drains. Duresses can avoid them to replay bounced back threats. Am I going to suffer something particular from them? Not at all. Their own best spell ( D.Confidant ) can be bounced back almost forever and they are consuming entire turns in order to regain a better board position. All their threats are killed by a single shot a well protected Balance and C.Wish can help you keeping opponent down on resources with a good instant choice. Skeletals aren't the best thing to resolve, especially if you are greedy and don't think about going around their own Dazes. Shutting Dazes down ( drawing one card less is enough ), you are facing 4 FoW with 4 FoW, 4 Drains and 3/4 Duresses. Aside from unexpected STRONG and UNUSUAL winning race, Fish cannot compete with the cards drawing from your own first or second Skeletal. You better answers ( board control, hand control, drawers ) are ALWAYS 1 for X while their answers are, usually 1 for 1. This gap, if you are able to build a stable mana base, is KEY for every win. I don't underestimate Fish, but I know they aren't going to win too easily against you. You, instead, will lose if you keep low mana hands.

Against MW.dec, there are 2 or 3 key spells to search for and resolve.
Balance is the end all. You are going to win negating, in a single shot, both their own Welders and their fatties. No switches are possible. You are going to regain board parity with a single parity. If you built your play in a *pretty standard monoU style*, MW.dec will not easily destroy your mana base ( post side, it is nearly impossible ). CotVs aren't effective ( aside from being played at 1, negating Repeals on them ) and their own worst threats can be answered with mana and C.Wish. If they are smart, they can put a quick CotV@1 to steal you a lot of spells. Preside, you have to be lucky to hit C.Wish or playable tutors as soon as this situation comes down. Post side, you have tools and protections to escape from almost any lock. You winners, slow and fats are good too. DoJ can give you time creating tokens even under their own lock and with only mana at your disposal while TPC simply put them on a tremendous clock. Is this game winnable? Yes. Is it easy? No, but I'm not advocating a simple or linear decks at all

Against Control.Combo decks, you have to check out for ToA and Y.Will with your Duresses ( or cheaper bombs, of coourse ) as soon as you can. There are really few things to do when you are low on life and they can simply play 2 moxen and win with a stupid ToA. Their own aggressive strategy can be antisinergic with your own drawing strategy, but you should not abuse of it blindly. Disrupt their hand first, gain a bit of time and capitalize your resources. Then you can Scry for some new fresh cards, depleting your life points but being sure that you will not die to freequently from opponents' *random topdeck*. If you are wise, you can win. If you are too predictable, you can only lose.

Against Speed.Combo decks, Duresses and good hands are required. Drains + Duress can be simply TOO MUCH for them to recover. Duress aways something and counter their own slower threat. Are they going to topdeck better things AGAIN? Maybe you have FoW or Answers for their own lucky draw. Belcher is a cool opponent but, aside from first-turn-kill or broken hands, your deck can manipulate enough to survive and win. Against TPS or Long or Dragon, you need more more more foresight and ... a good sideboard. Any skeletal you resolve is a gift for them. You are going to give them free spells and every draw you *miss* is another walk towards splendid losses. On the other hand, they won't win soon ALWAYS and you are going to start games meanly 50% of the times. Games descriptions are really difficult without any actual data, but there are a lot of hidden hints through this words.

The optimal rule to apply forever, while playing this deck is *DON'T TAP YOU OUT* while his own best corollary is *BE WISE!!!*.

You cannot underestimate opponents.
Almost never!

On the other hand, you have tools and resources to win.
Almost always!

Repeat with me:
DON'T TAP YOU OUT!
BE WISE!

MaxxMatt

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La fonte originale del post
Un mio post su TMD

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Cambi fatti dalla prima lista originale:
-1 Repeal
+1 Duress
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V
+1 Polluted Delta
-1 Flooded Strand
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V
-1 Sacred Ground
+1 Pithing Needle
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V
-1 Stripmine
+1 Library of Alexandria

Zherbus · **Iscritto il:** mer 6 giu 2007, 20:38 **Messaggi:** 1

Hey Matt!

I want to add to this for the build I settled on pre-Gush unrestriction. I'll post the list and some relevant testing/discussion information.

Here is the list I played:

//Bones N Bots - 5cControl
1 Strip Mine
2 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tolaria West
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
//Core
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Duress
//Win
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Platinum Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds
//Draw
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
//Win conditions that aren't Tinker
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
//Tutors
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Morphling
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Oath of Druids

The Titan in the board should be another Wish target. The Tolaria West was really unimpressive, so it just should be an island. Keep in mind, the maindeck is 4 colors with the 5th in the SB.

Here is a bunch of posts from the Meandeck forums. Read em all over, then look at my testing results. PLEASE do not show anyone this list prior to Saturday, I need my edge in the unknown Meta.

Cita:

//Duress and the Anti-Duress (7)
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm

//Hah (5)
2 Cunning Wish
3 Chalice of the Void

//Counter (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

//Tutor (4)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

//Draw (6)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying

//Broken (4)
1 Balance
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

//Win (5)
1 Tinker
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Gorilla Shaman

//Manabase (24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island

SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

I've been testing a ton. I love this list, it's getting a lot closer to what Demars plays in Slaver. I basically run white for Balance and white wish targets over Goblin Welder, which I'm not liking right now. I'm doing the Collossus thing purely because I need to win asap once I get control. The Chalice's are there as time walks 2-4. I throw them out there (usually for 1), and it buys me time while they get it bounced. In the meantime, I still have an impressive disruption suite maindeck in:

3 Duress
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain (VERY KEY)
3 Chalice
1 Strip Mine
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mind Twist
1 Uber-Mind Twist/Strip Mine/Wrath of God (Balance)

My draw engine is toned down by a spell, since Control Mirrors are almost non-existant (moment of silence). I can afford to get away with:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying

The Scryings are usually for 3, sometimes 2 or 4. The ability to re-use removed cards via Cunning Wish is the nuts for the long game.

My tutoring is sound:

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish (Vampiric as Wish target)
1 Tinker

My bullets are amazing, and flexable:

1 Darksteel Collosus
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Crucible of Worlds

The Masticore was something I used in Extended to obliterate aggro with UW Tron. It's quite a sound beating against Fish, though I am considering Sundering Titan. It's just that I can reliably hardcast this guy.

Crucible, as Brian will attest, is just the "oh shit" card your opponent just hates to see with Strip in the yard. If I get it along with Gorilla Shaman, it's basically GG against anything but Fish.

The sb does have one flaw - I'm almost entirely ignoring Stax. I expect it to be hard, but I'm really not seeing it anywhere. I think I have the tools to fight it, but again, won't be easy. Leyline, plow, and Extirpate should do okay against Ichorid, but I'm not seeing that being played as much as it should be either. Basically, my game plan is to Leyline in play and dig like a mofo for Collosus.

Something wants me to play Platinum Angel, but she's awful everytime I play here. My Exalted Angels and Decree of Justices are looking at me from my binder. Sorry guys, you blow right now.

EDIT: Missing MD Slot will either be Duress or STP...
SB Changes

[s]SB: 1 Darkblast [/s]
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: [s]2[/s] 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Wasteland
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Here is the first batch of testing...

Cita:

I tested a bunch tonight:

2-0 Versus Flash.dec - The combo is brittle as hell in Vintage. I think the Rector version is better, but still below Meandeck or Long.

4-1 Versus UWb Fish - The one game I lost was nuts. He was just drawing gas after gas with Confidant while I was casting all my draw and getting... lands. The rest of the game, Fish would be like: "Oh shit, a non-land permanent *scoop*." I had FTK swallow Jotun Grunts, and swing right over for some beats.

5-2 Versus Long - I'm pretty sure it was Grim Long. These builds are mad confusing to keep track of. Both games I lost were to a topdecks Will after I shut him down. I shuffled away lands with Brainstorm/Fetch only to draw 3 lands again. Give long enough time to recover, and you're fackin' DONE. My Chalices worked as planned. I'd drain something, dump down a Chalice for 1, he'd be able to answer it, but it did buy me turns. The other guy I played cycled all 4 of his Street Wrath, and between the Grims and Fetchlands, I never needed anything more than Shaman.

Got some more in, but it was against Oath. I'm not sure if it's regarded as universally bad but I spanked it 2-0.

Game 1, he plays some acceleration with Orchard and DT. He tutors for Oath and passes the turn. I drop some mana and on his turn drain his Oath, the Skeletal for 3 next turn and drop more lands. Seems like I always draw my collosus Doesn't matter, he starts digging for another Oath, while I DT for Strip, setting him back to just an Emerald in play. He draws a land and keeps digging, I Tinker a Mox away for Crucible and replay Strip Mine.

Game 2, he tries for a turn 1 Oath, I Force. I duress a second one and drop Shaman. Shaman eats his Mox and joins spirit tokens in combat. The next turn I tinker away a mox for Collosus and he scoops.

EDIT: Beat the shit out of Sullivan Solution too. A duress revealed 3 moxes, Erayo, Confidant and a FoW. I took the FoW and droped a 0 counter Chalice. I Drained a Confidant, Cunning Wish into Extirpate to shut him off. Again, I won with that GODDAMN Collosus in my hand. Second game I just got Crucible Strip online turn 2 and he scooped.

EDIT 2: Beat Fish again... UW Fish. I let a Meddling Mage hit naming Mana Drain. He Jotun Grunted, but there was only enough gas in the GY for 1 swing. I Chalice for 2 to test for FoW, there is none. He swings again, I untap and Fact or Fiction - Still no FoW. He does 2 more, I Mind Twist his whole hand (discarding Kataki, Null Rod, and 2 STP). He swings again, I untap and drop Razormane and it's unpleasant from there on out.

EDIT 3: For what it's worth, I beat MUD of all decks.

EDIT 4: Belcher was COMICAL. Duress reveals 2 Belchers, 4 0cc mana accelerants and Mana vault. I take Mana vault and drop chalice for 0. Game 2, he dumps all this mana, and I wait with a FoW. I Brainstorm, then shuffle, then Ancestral into Gorilla Shaman and eat half his board.

2-1 Versus Ichorid. I have jack shit game 1, unless I draw just the right stuff. I'm fine game 2, as Leyline is a beating. The disenchant effects they have are a little scary, but it's not too hard to defend.

2-0 Long - Game 1 I Gorilla Shaman his moxen, duress his Bargain. Game 2, I chalice him into concession after my duress takes his removal.I played against Slaver and Oath tonight

Slaver was real easy, as it wasn't Brain Demars build. I think it was Shay's, not sure though. The player was certainly fine, but a well-timed Extirpate on Goblin Welder cripples some of those builds. 2-0

Oath was more interesting. We were throwing Chalices back and forth. We kept wearing each other down until I went for Tinker once he got low and killed with Collosus. The next game, after we beat the cards out of each others hands (he ran Duress, Chalice as well), I got Strip Mine on him, cutting off black. He hadn't gotten green since I Mind Twisted his Orchard. He had Duressed my Crucible, but I dug with Brainstorm and found Will. I cast it, used Sol Ring to cast it and replayed Strip Mine until he conceded. 2-0

5-1 versus Goblins - Who the fuck plays this anymore, anyway?

2-1 versus Sullivan Solution - Chalice for 2 does it every time, Tinkered for Collusus and usually only need to swing once since fetchlands, FoW, and Confidant usually take 10 off themselves.

2-0 Control Slaver - Dry Slaver?

And now my possible update, still not 100% sure.

Cita:

Rian - Chalice for 0 is pretty rare. It usually only follows me dropping like 3 of my 0cc spells on the table or a Duress where I see them sitting on a few. Chalice for 1 is the worst for me, but it's usually worse for Tendrils. Chalice for 2 only shuts of my Drains and usually I spend a Drain to cast it, so it's rarely bad for me. It's an absolutely bitch-slap to Fish (Daze, Confidant, J Grunt, Meddling Mage, etc). When I had 4, it was too much. 3 seems just right.

In both versions I took out Razormane Masticore for Sundering Titan.

Here's the alternate SB version I'm testing:

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Morphling
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Oath of Druids

It's to early to tell whether the Oath's do anything to my matchups. Extirpate blew... hard. Seriously, it's just bad. Even as a Wish target. And it does nothing to Ichorid but inconvenience them... and not in the meaningful kind.

Here's the updated SB for the one I've been running for weeks:

SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Hide/Seek suffers from Extirpate disease. Nabbin' one thing doesn't do much but slow people down. It's not making any difference and is kind of a waste of a Wish in comparison to just getting Vamp, Gush, or E. Truth.

As for Titan... it's in the place that was Razormane Masticore, but as much of a beating as RM was, I got myself in some dicky positions. In short, it was good but I want to WIN when I tinker, not just beat up some dudes. Getting Titan against Fish just wins sometimes, otherwise sometimes Collosus does. I tried Triskevalus (the Time Spiral guy) and he was decent, but did basically what Razormane did in terms of board control and won slower. He did avoid plow nicely though.

Platinum in the board with Oath for Ichorid was me basically fearing that deck the most. I've done OKAY without Oath, but those players are getting better at fighting Leyline and I don't want to lean on that too heavily.

Also, did you notice Morphling? As Fish is EVERYWHERE (I fucking went to order two Null Rods on SCG and they go for $15 a pop now!!), I felt this was the best thing to Oath up against a deck that can just plow or bounce whatever you get. Morphling is quite a beating there since it can swing, avoid removal (noone plays Edict), and then untap to block Jotun Grunts all day long.

In short, I built the maindeck to be able to fight combo, but I don't want to lose to Ichorid, Fish, or AnythingWithCreatures.dec... as the South is completely unpredictable, I could be facing down Goblins or Affinity round one next weeked. I want to live long enough to beat Cody Vinci, Chris Coppola, Albert Kyle, and the random kids in the later rounds. One luxery combo always has is the ability to have bye's against so much. Control never had that luxery, so I'm taking it.

And the bit of testing with this build...

Cita:

2-1 Uba Stax - Game 1, I stop Crucible for beating my nuts with FoW. I tinker out Collossus and we go to game 2. I mis-sb grossly, I get stamped in hard. Game 3 I drain Smokestack (Turn 1 Sapphire Fetchie) and Twist his hand away.

2-0 Fish Game 1, I tinker out Titan and blow up three of his lands. He flips Ninja with Bob and I swing for the win. Game 2, I Duress him, then second turn drop an Oath and I hear "FINISH HIM" and Oath brings out a very large dude and wins from there.

2-1 Ichorid - Game 1 Bazaar just goes. I keep him at bay, but I eventually get eaten alive by Zombie tokens. Game 2, Leyline with FoW back up. Game 3, no Leyline but I Oath out Platinum Angel and stop any attempts he has to get rid of her.

Verdicts still out on Oath. If it doesn't work out, I'll just run with the version I have prior.

2-0 Bomberman - Crucible Strip action and Chalice for 1 locking out some stuff. Tinker out Collosus and win. Game 2, he's ahead on mana. I strip a FoW and a Drain from his hand with an Ancestral. I Tinker out Titan and reverse his board dominance. Win in 2 turns from there.

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And another edit that I'm going to test:

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Funny you should mention that.

The 2 basic Islands aren't really doing the magical things they used to. I was think of doing this:

-2 Island
+1 Academy
+1 Tolaria West

The Tolaria West could really rock my nuts in here as a one of. I can fetch any of my Moxen/Petal/Lotus, my Chalices, Academy, and Strip.

I'll make those changes and test a bit. My only concern is that it makes my mana a bit more disruptable versus Fish, but I think that's negotiable. The CIP tapped thing could blow anus too, but I think the strengths outweigh it. We shall see!

It's a little outdated now, but I think that it's easily adaptable to a 4Gush metagame. For instance, Extirpate really messes with the Gush engine.

MaxxMatt

@Zherbus

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Hey Matt!

Nice to meet you here Steve!
History repeat herself again, here

Hurry ho on comments for oldschooldecks.
MaxxMatt and Zherbus.
Are we not more than Magic TheFlingstones?

....Naaaaahhh! :-D

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//Bones N Bots - 5cControl
1 Strip Mine
2 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tolaria West
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

We both have 24 mana fonts. Cool number.
A lot of fetches ( we need them to grab the needed color since time to time). Nice.

I too tried TolarianWest in control decks and it is too slow even for me.
On the other hand, it solves me a couple of mana fixing problems in another deck I recently build ( AsimmetricalTwist ),
so I think that if our/your metagame would be a bit slower, this card will find space in my deck too.
While it is good in a deck that MUST search for Academy or Lotus in any possible ways, to speed up nasty Storm wins, here
the best thing to find is Stripmine or E.E.. With all the grave hate all around and the speed acquired by the entire
enviroment, I think that we cannot build too many wins on Strip-CoW anymore and E.E. is not more than *little noise*
against a lot of decks. In control decks, Academy and Lotus are broken only relatively to the number of restricted cards
out hand will contain. An additional Island ( or our loved/hated Mana Crypt ) will be less flexible but more effective.

I'm a bit flatten out by Tundrax2, instead than in single copy.
You have only Balance and StP to search for, no DoJ and an additional CoW for recursion too.
On the other hand, U.Sea#4 can be preferred to Tundra#2 exactly as much as Island#1 and #2 ( cutting T.West for the
latter ).

Aren't you going to suffer Wasteland recursions too much without Islands?
Is this deck directed ONLY against metagames with little to nothing MW.dec or Fish.dec?

I will add for sure Island#1 and Island#2 instead of TUndra#2 and T.West., mantaining the lands' total number.
I'm really puzzled about the lack of Islands, really.

I read you exact post on TMD in our special sections and I was going to check for the reasons there, too.
ANyway, now we are here ...

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//Core
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Duress

Ah, time passed and you are still fallen in love for chaliceKeeper.dec. Sweet.

I'm with you with these choices, because powering up defences against SpeedCombo.decs and other COntrolCombo.decs
will always rewards.
I preferred to play full set of Duress instead of the Duress/CotV mix and for some specific reasons: Repeals have been added to combo set of bouncers
here in Italy and the impact of a single CotV against anything but Belcher is unimpressive. Fast decks on the play can completely ignore CotV@0 and you are going
to suffer CtV@1 on your first turn play, too.
Have been them so game sealing for you, AT NOW?

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//Win
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Platinum Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds

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//Draw
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

Are Skeletals engine good against an enviroment that have the porpouse to deal with Grave in a so dedicated manner?
Aren't you going to prefer other old best staples drawers that can let you be EVEN less attackable from hate cards?
Excluding your own passion for Skeletals, playing with TFKs or Confidants in their place, would be so much different and it will give you additional cards in hand
in a less hatable way for sure. Confidants are slower but can break control mirrors really frequently and TFKs aren't stellars but with the huge mumber of
artifacts you packed into the maindeck, they can compete for sure with the first Skeletals, that will not bring so many fresh cards in hand.

Gush is completely counterintuitive here, and I will not suggest it, excluding adding them ONLY to let your lands to survive to denial attacks.
Have you tried -3Skeletals +3 TFks, AT NOW? In the past, we exchanged positive considerations about both Skeletals and TFKs. I ended up playing both of them.
You continue to prefer Skeletals over TFKs.

They are better, even IMHO, but are you sure that TFks cannot be considered MORE SINERGIC with the rest of the maindeck and your own entire game plan?

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//Win conditions that aren't Tinker
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist

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//Tutors
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

This remaining part of the deck is good for me, really good.
You searched for both "restricted cards" and "general porpouse utilities" in a correct way and the result is cool.
"Vintage" and cool

Since 1 year, my own tourney deck ( not 3cc but a control combo one ) isn't using attack phases for the win, so maindecking creatures sounds for me a bit
strange. Anyway, this deck cannot pack different tools for the win.
Platz is a cool way to stall Ichorid and DSC is a quick way to win in two turns against anyone.
I'm not sure if CoW+Shamans are worth their spot anymore.

I proposed the latter, on TMD, during the descriptions of my new 4cc

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// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Morphling
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Oath of Druids

AH, that is crazy but extremely efficient.
Nice!

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The Titan in the board should be another Wish target. The Tolaria West was really unimpressive, so it just should be an island. Keep in mind, the maindeck is
4 colors with the 5th in the SB.

Wise choice

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Here is a bunch of posts from the Meandeck forums. Read em all over, then look at my testing results. PLEASE do not show anyone this list prior to Saturday,
I need my edge in the unknown Meta.

//Duress and the Anti-Duress (7)
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
//Hah (5)
2 Cunning Wish
3 Chalice of the Void
//Counter (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
//Tutor (4)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
//Draw (6)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying
//Broken (4)
1 Balance
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
//Win (5)
1 Tinker
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Gorilla Shaman
//Manabase (24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island

SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

I've been testing a ton. I love this list, it's getting a lot closer to what Demars plays in Slaver. I basically run white for Balance and white wish targets
over Goblin Welder, which I'm not liking right now. I'm doing the Collossus thing purely because I need to win asap once I get control. The Chalice's are there
as time walks 2-4. I throw them out there (usually for 1), and it buys me time while they get it bounced. In the meantime, I still have an impressive disruption
suite maindeck in:
3 Duress
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain (VERY KEY)
3 Chalice
1 Strip Mine
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mind Twist
1 Uber-Mind Twist/Strip Mine/Wrath of God (Balance)
My draw engine is toned down by a spell, since Control Mirrors are almost non-existant (moment of silence). I can afford to get away with:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying
The Scryings are usually for 3, sometimes 2 or 4. The ability to re-use removed cards via Cunning Wish is the nuts for the long game.
My tutoring is sound:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish (Vampiric as Wish target)
1 Tinker
My bullets are amazing, and flexable:
1 Darksteel Collosus
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Crucible of Worlds
The Masticore was something I used in Extended to obliterate aggro with UW Tron. It's quite a sound beating against Fish, though I am considering Sundering Titan.
It's just that I can reliably hardcast this guy.
Crucible, as Brian will attest, is just the "oh shit" card your opponent just hates to see with Strip in the yard. If I get it along with Gorilla Shaman, it's
basically GG against anything but Fish.
The sb does have one flaw - I'm almost entirely ignoring Stax. I expect it to be hard, but I'm really not seeing it anywhere. I think I have the tools to fight
it, but again, won't be easy. Leyline, plow, and Extirpate should do okay against Ichorid, but I'm not seeing that being played as much as it should be either.
Basically, my game plan is to Leyline in play and dig like a mofo for Collosus.
Something wants me to play Platinum Angel, but she's awful everytime I play here. My Exalted Angels and Decree of Justices are looking at me from my binder.
Sorry guys, you blow right now.

As far as the metagame is running into the direction that we have analyzed some lines above here, I will prefer Platz over Masticore.
Tinkered fast and barring yourself behind the huge wall of your protections can be MORE gamebreaking than the latter and it is GG against a lot of decks,
especially the ones without too many maindeck answers to it.

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EDIT: Missing MD Slot will either be Duress or STP...
SB Changes
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 2 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Wasteland
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Even if you had to add the last colour, the idea of taking down aggro and aggrocontrol with the Oath engine post side, is really better than the
StP-Darkblast-FTK-E.Truth parade of spells.

Referring to your last sideboard, I will think about adding to the side E.Truth too.
It can help you really good against both MW.dec and EtW.dec
If Extirpate will not impress you, I will put E.Truth in that spot for sure.
On the other hand, I think that Extirpate will help us to keep in touch Flash.dec preside games.

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Here is the first batch of testing...
Quote:
I tested a bunch tonight:

2-0 Versus Flash.dec - The combo is brittle as hell in Vintage. I think the Rector version is better, but still below Meandeck or Long.
4-1 Versus UWb Fish - The one game I lost was nuts. He was just drawing gas after gas with Confidant while I was casting all my draw and getting... lands.
The rest of the game, Fish would be like: "Oh shit, a non-land permanent *scoop*." I had FTK swallow Jotun Grunts, and swing right over for some beats.
5-2 Versus Long - I'm pretty sure it was Grim Long. These builds are mad confusing to keep track of. Both games I lost were to a topdecks Will after I shut
him down. I shuffled away lands with Brainstorm/Fetch only to draw 3 lands again. Give long enough time to recover, and you're fackin' DONE. My Chalices worked
as planned. I'd drain something, dump down a Chalice for 1, he'd be able to answer it, but it did buy me turns. The other guy I played cycled all 4 of his Street
Wrath, and between the Grims and Fetchlands, I never needed anything more than Shaman.

These tests are really good. While I expected your wins against Fish and Long, I'm a bit puzzled about the completely positive result against Flash, arguing that
you both played unsideboarded. If you played AND WON TWICE IN A ROW aganst the UGb version with full of free counters, nice draw/tutor engine and "thesmallcombo"
( kiki-karmic-feeder ). These are the two list ( sort of ) that I'm keeping it touch at now. some cards can be changed for sure. Have you played against those
ones or the ones with Disciples&Walls?

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4 Polluted delta
2 Swamp
1 Island
3 Underground sea
1 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox

4 Academy Rector
1 Sundering Titan
1 Null Profusion
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkly's Recall
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Flash
1 Mystical Tutor

SIDEBOARD
1 Hurkly's Recall
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Rebuild
1 Form of the Dragon
3 Massacre
3 Duress
1 The Abyss
1 Seal of Cleansing

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/ Lands
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [OD] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [UD] Body Snatcher
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder

// Spells
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
1 [U] Demonic Tutor
1 [VI] Vampiric Tutor
3 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
1 [A] Sol Ring
1 [PR] Mana Crypt
1 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [MM] Misdirection
4 [6E] Flash
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
4 [IA] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

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Got some more in, but it was against Oath. I'm not sure if it's regarded as universally bad but I spanked it 2-0.
Game 1, he plays some acceleration with Orchard and DT. He tutors for Oath and passes the turn. I drop some mana and on his turn drain his Oath, the Skeletal
for 3 next turn and drop more lands. Seems like I always draw my collosus. ( MaxxMatt-----> OH YES!!!!)
Doesn't matter, he starts digging for another Oath, while I DT for Strip, setting him back to just an Emerald in play. He draws a land and keeps digging,
I Tinker a Mox away for Crucible and replay Strip Mine.
Game 2, he tries for a turn 1 Oath, I Force. I duress a second one and drop Shaman. Shaman eats his Mox and joins spirit tokens in combat. The next turn I
tinker away a mox for Collosus and he scoops.

EDIT: Beat the shit out of Sullivan Solution too. A duress revealed 3 moxes, Erayo, Confidant and a FoW. I took the FoW and droped a 0 counter Chalice. I Drained
a Confidant, Cunning Wish into Extirpate to shut him off. Again, I won with that GODDAMN Collosus in my hand. Second game I just got Crucible Strip online turn 2
and he scooped.

EDIT 2: Beat Fish again... UW Fish. I let a Meddling Mage hit naming Mana Drain. He Jotun Grunted, but there was only enough gas in the GY for 1 swing. I Chalice
for 2 to test for FoW, there is none. He swings again, I untap and Fact or Fiction - Still no FoW. He does 2 more, I Mind Twist his whole hand (discarding Kataki,
Null Rod, and 2 STP). He swings again, I untap and drop Razormane and it's unpleasant from there on out.

EDIT 3: For what it's worth, I beat MUD of all decks.

EDIT 4: Belcher was COMICAL. Duress reveals 2 Belchers, 4 0cc mana accelerants and Mana vault. I take Mana vault and drop chalice for 0. Game 2, he dumps all this
mana, and I wait with a FoW. I Brainstorm, then shuffle, then Ancestral into Gorilla Shaman and eat half his board.

2-1 Versus Ichorid. I have jack shit game 1, unless I draw just the right stuff. I'm fine game 2, as Leyline is a beating. The disenchant effects they have are
a little scary, but it's not too hard to defend.

You are winning against almost anyone!
Props to you!

Regarding Ichorid, Game 2 & 3.
It is plain and simple that they board in reverence silence and forest/driad to deal with leyline.
Aren't we going to use in a better strategical way TORMOD's CRYPTS instead of LEYLINE?

Ichrorid is expecting Leyline all day long, while it cannot play his game plan expecting to deal with BOTH enchantments and artifacts.
You can proactively decide to play the less used among Ichorid common hate.
You can easily go around the fact that CotV@0 ( his or yours ) is going to crush with T.Crypt a bit.

I'm saying this, because I'm playing with them ( maindeck and sideboard ).
They are so good, for me, and so difficultly answered that I cannot think to play Leyline.

Think about forcing your self to mull into it or play 4 mana to hardcast it!
It is a complete waste of time.

T.Crypt, from the perspective of your own deck, can be drawn, tutored in various ways and, if needed, Tinkered too!
Bounce back CotV@0, pull out T.Crypt and win.

I'm not a fan of Leyline. Their *conditional strenght* is to disguising for me.

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2-0 Long - Game 1 I Gorilla Shaman his moxen, duress his Bargain. Game 2, I chalice him into concession after my duress takes his removal.

I played against Slaver and Oath tonight
Slaver was real easy, as it wasn't Brain Demars build. I think it was Shay's, not sure though. The player was certainly fine, but a well-timed Extirpate on
Goblin Welder cripples some of those builds. 2-0
Oath was more interesting. We were throwing Chalices back and forth. We kept wearing each other down until I went for Tinker once he got low and killed with
Collosus. The next game, after we beat the cards out of each others hands (he ran Duress, Chalice as well), I got Strip Mine on him, cutting off black. He hadn't
gotten green since I Mind Twisted his Orchard. He had Duressed my Crucible, but I dug with Brainstorm and found Will. I cast it, used Sol Ring to cast it and
replayed Strip Mine until he conceded. 2-0

5-1 versus Goblins - Who the fuck plays this anymore, anyway?

2-1 versus Sullivan Solution - Chalice for 2 does it every time, Tinkered for Collusus and usually only need to swing once since fetchlands, FoW, and Confidant
usually take 10 off themselves.

2-0 Control Slaver - Dry Slaver?

[/quote]

Those results, are going to magnify the impact of this deck ONTO the metagame.
If you are winning so much, and you are ALONE, think about when will be AT LEAST TWO playing this monster ( ..but with 2x Islands..

)

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And now my possible update, still not 100% sure.

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:
Rian -
Chalice for 0 is pretty rare. It usually only follows me dropping like 3 of my 0cc spells on the table or a Duress where I see them sitting on a few.
Chalice for 1 is the worst for me, but it's usually worse for Tendrils.
Chalice for 2 only shuts of my Drains and usually I spend a Drain to cast it, so it's rarely bad for me. It's an absolutely bitch-slap to Fish (Daze, Confidant,
J Grunt, Meddling Mage, etc).
When I had 4, it was too much. 3 seems just right.

In both versions I took out Razormane Masticore for Sundering Titan.

Here's the alternate SB version I'm testing:

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Morphling
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Oath of Druids

It's to early to tell whether the Oath's do anything to my matchups. Extirpate blew... hard. Seriously, it's just bad. Even as a Wish target. And it does nothing
to Ichorid but inconvenience them... and not in the meaningful kind.

Here's the updated SB for the one I've been running for weeks:

SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Hide/Seek suffers from Extirpate disease. Nabbin' one thing doesn't do much but slow people down. It's not making any difference and is kind of a waste of a Wish
in comparison to just getting Vamp, Gush, or E. Truth.

As for Titan... it's in the place that was Razormane Masticore, but as much of a beating as RM was, I got myself in some dicky positions. In short, it was good
but I want to WIN when I tinker, not just beat up some dudes. Getting Titan against Fish just wins sometimes, otherwise sometimes Collosus does. I tried
Triskevalus (the Time Spiral guy) and he was decent, but did basically what Razormane did in terms of board control and won slower. He did avoid plow nicely
though.

Platinum in the board with Oath for Ichorid was me basically fearing that deck the most. I've done OKAY without Oath, but those players are getting better at
fighting Leyline and I don't want to lean on that too heavily.

this is exactly what I meant some lines ago.

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Also, did you notice Morphling? As Fish is EVERYWHERE (I fucking went to order two Null Rods on SCG and they go for $15 a pop now!!), I felt this was the
best thing to Oath up against a deck that can just plow or bounce whatever you get. Morphling is quite a beating there since it can swing, avoid removal (noone
plays Edict), and then untap to block Jotun Grunts all day long.
In short, I built the maindeck to be able to fight combo, but I don't want to lose to Ichorid, Fish, or AnythingWithCreatures.dec... as the South is completely
unpredictable, I could be facing down Goblins or Affinity round one next weeked. I want to live long enough to beat Cody Vinci, Chris Coppola, Albert Kyle, and
the random kids in the later rounds. One luxery combo always has is the ability to have bye's against so much. Control never had that luxery, so I'm taking it.

And the bit of testing with this build...

2-1 Uba Stax - Game 1, I stop Crucible for beating my nuts with FoW. I tinker out Collossus and we go to game 2. I mis-sb grossly, I get stamped in hard. Game 3
I drain Smokestack (Turn 1 Sapphire Fetchie) and Twist his hand away.

How much can you weight the impact of Wastelands against you?
IMHO, this deck must see opponents' CoW as a REAL threat because of GraveDenial recursions.
Are you going to FoW them forever?
I think that Islands will help us to decrease the impact of CoWs against us and contemporarily improve the stability of the deck

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2-0 Fish Game 1, I tinker out Titan and blow up three of his lands. He flips Ninja with Bob and I swing for the win. Game 2, I Duress him, then second turn drop
an Oath and I hear "FINISH HIM" and Oath brings out a very large dude and wins from there.

2-1 Ichorid - Game 1 Bazaar just goes. I keep him at bay, but I eventually get eaten alive by Zombie tokens. Game 2, Leyline with FoW back up. Game 3, no Leyline
but I Oath out Platinum Angel and stop any attempts he has to get rid of her.

Verdicts still out on Oath. If it doesn't work out, I'll just run with the version I have prior.

I'm completely with you with this decisions.
Play with Oath in side and use Morph+Platz as control-win-enhancers.

If I will be you, I drop Titan from the board because it seemes to me that in any game you tutored for it, it was unimpressive.
This choice will free an additional sideboard slot: both E.Truth or StP or additional bouncers.

I'll play STitan ONLY if I have to face and break control mirrors or UB-combo deck: they play islands and swamps and solid manabases.
Titan is THE COOL THING to tutor out when playing against them because it will IMMEDIATELY deal with their own strong manabase.
ASide with Strip recursion, Titan entrance on the board usually give you the BEST Armageddon Effect ever print for us.

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2-0 Bomberman - Crucible Strip action and Chalice for 1 locking out some stuff. Tinker out Collosus and win. Game 2, he's ahead on mana. I strip a FoW and a
Drain from his hand with an Ancestral. I Tinker out Titan and reverse his board dominance. Win in 2 turns from there.

And another edit that I'm going to test:

Funny you should mention that.

The 2 basic Islands aren't really doing the magical things they used to. I was think of doing this:

-2 Island
+1 Academy
+1 Tolaria West

The Tolaria West could really rock my nuts in here as a one of. I can fetch any of my Moxen/Petal/Lotus, my Chalices, Academy, and Strip.

I'll make those changes and test a bit. My only concern is that it makes my mana a bit more disruptable versus Fish, but I think that's negotiable. The CIP
tapped thing could blow anus too, but I think the strengths outweigh it. We shall see!

It's a little outdated now, but I think that it's easily adaptable to a 4Gush metagame. For instance, Extirpate really messes with the Gush engine.

So this is, retrospectively speaking, the ideas behind Islands and the two Tolarias...
uhm...
your tests seems to confirm my own good attitude towards the first ones.
On the other hand, I will cut T.West and Tundra#2 for Island#1 and Island#2
Keep Tolarian Academy in your side. It is gamebreaking ANYTIME you can "go off" with his mana AND BOTH when you will steal ANOTHER land to combo decks, too!

See you soon, man!
Nice to see you involved on active MtG again!
We dinosaucers were getting alone!

Maxx

[ENG] [Deck] 3C-Control 2007 - Lupo-Pelo-Vizio

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