Ciao a tutti!
Dopo aver speso un sacco di tempo a cercare le carte per completare il mazzo in real ( i porti sono più difficili da trovare delle dual!
) sono finalmente in grado di poterlo giocare, e ho quindi cominciato a testarlo seriamente.
Ero partito da una lista inventata "sul momento" quando ho recuperato anche l'ultimo flickerwisp, che era la seguente.
[deck]7 Plains
4 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
[/deck]
Che mi sembrava abbastanza buona. Poi , seguendo il consiglio del buon Matteo, sono andato a controllare invece come viene giocata in giro, giusto per farmi un idea su come poter gestire anche la side.
Da un rapido giro su Decktutor, ho visto che le ultime 4 top di D&T hanno tutte la stessa lista
di Thomas Enevoldsen, che è la seguente:
[deck]
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
SIDEBOARD:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Sunlance
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
[/deck]
E posso dire di averci quasi preso
Rispetto alla mia versione, giocano +1fiend hunter - 1 flickerwisp, -1 mirran + 1 pianura.
E fin qui le scelte le capisco e mi piacciono.
Nella manabase poi c'è quell'Eiganjo Castle che io non riesco a farmi piacere. Punishing fire e quello che volete, ma.. mi sembra una risposta fragile, per di più non tutorabile. Per questo mi sono permesso il cambio a cuor leggero con una Cavern in più, perchè a volte far entrare sul campo da gioco un Orrore , può essere fondamentale quanto un Umano, o un Elementale. e poi preferisco giocare con 6 fiale
La 4 karakas è una scelta che si può condividere o meno, anche alle luci delle nuove regole. Perchè è vero che sul momento possiamo comunque sfruttare un mana in più, ma avendo già io un numero piuttosto alto di terre colorless, credo proprio che seguirò la loro impostazione per avere un mana bianco in più sicuro.
Il fiend Hunter al posto del Flickerwisp... beh. Può avere senso, per quanto io adori quella carta, e la vorrei portare a 4 copie.
Perchè anche se ne apro due in mano, sono contento: non è una carta che giocherò con molta probabilità nei primi 6-7 turni, e tempo per accumulare risorse ce n'è ( vista la quantità di terre che gioca il mazzo). Certo, aprire due Flicker e una mano che non ha altre risposte è un problema.
Poi, la side.
Rip, Mindbreak trap e oblivion ring sono abbastanza autoesplicativi. Wilt Leaf è lì sia per le liliane/discard, ma soprattutto per non morire come degli stronzi da Sulfur Elemental. Perchè concordo anche io con quanto è stato detto precedentemente in questa discussione: il mazzo muore se si trova ad affrontare una side "mirata" come i Sulfur, i dread of night, e simili.
E a differenza di quanto detto, non credo che Sulfur venga giocato solo da canadian, in quanto è anche una presenza molto probabile nelle side di Miracle, nel qual mazzo viene spesso usata per il mirror.
E quindi è una scelta che decisamente approvo.
Arriviamo quindi a una sfilza di 1*.
Ago, Canonista, Sunlance,seconda jitte, relic of progenitus, relic warder.
Ago secondo me acquista ancora più importanza con le nuove regole, in quanto abbiamo bisogno di una risposta in più a una jitte avversaria, che se non è gestita per tempo letteralmente uccide il mazzo. Da una jitte attiva perdiamo peggio di tritoni. Che penso sia anche il motivo per cui si è scelto di giocare il warder, oltre ai normali vantaggi di questa carta polifunzionale.
Canonista é una carta la cui importanza aumenterà nei prossimi tempi, vista la popolarità rinnovata di cui godrà molto probabilmente elfo + NO ( che è anche il motivo per cui considero sbagliato proporre, come stanno facendo su The source, di rimuovere gli Aven dal MD). La seconda jitte rientra nei motivi precedentemente esposti ( regola leggendaria+elfo), oltre ad essere una carta che si vuole vedere contro ogni mazzo. Relic of progenitus è un altra di quelle carte che prendono tempo, ed è fastidiosa per i mazzi che abusano di Deathrite shaman.
Sunlance fa da #6 removal.
Mi piace come side, anche se non mi fa impazzire non avere una vera soluzione ad un Entreat avversario. Perchè imho il mana-denial non basta come strategia per evitare questa broken che è stata data ai controlli, e nel meta italiano è molto più presente, questo mazzo.
Voi avete idee a riguardo? Come la cambiereste? io non riesco a trovare una carta inutile o che non sarei molto contento di avere in side.
Per quanto riguarda gli equipaggiamenti di cui parlava Leghorn prima, io sposo in pieno la linea di pensiero di Thomas, spiegata molto bene nei post successivi a quello linkato nel primer ( per cui ti rinnovo ancora i complimenti, davvero).
Nel caso servisse, riporto qui le sue considerazioni (il post nella discussione lo trovate
qui):
Thomas Enevoldsen ha scritto:
You mention the 'utility' of the swords package. I will point to my consistency argument and say that having utility in a lot of ways eschews consistency. As I've said before, I agree that Swords are nice to have (they are, afterall, very good cards), but they take slots away from the deck that I don't feel are affordable. All the creatures are necessary 4-ofs in my opinion, and that leaves no room for swords
So let's look at how they compare to Batterskull/Jitte! I think calling Batterskull 'a good beater' is quite the understatement. Mentioning all the good he/it does seems repetitive, as it is in fact all there on the card. Most importantly, I just feel he straight up outclasses Light and Shadow. This is mostly due to the fact that almost every matchup nowadays revolves around creatures (and if it doesn't, well then we are in a hurry to close out games, and Batterskull deals 4 damage and Light and Shadow deals 2, it's basic math!). He lifelinks for more, he works on both offense and defense (I realize Serra Avenger with Sword does that as well, but if I am allowed that situation, I'll choose a Jitte over L/S anyways...), and as regards to Light and Shadows recursion, Batterskull bring his own body! L/S requires both a connect with the opponent's face as well as 2(!) creatures in the yard to improve on Batterskull's stats. And even so, we are down 2 life in the race (which we are, btw, not vigilanting our way out of). You mention that L/S's recursion has won you matches against RUG simply by negating their removal (+2/+2 also gets around most burn) and allowing you to block 5/6 goys all day long. I will agree that a steady stream of blockers is a potential upgrade on Batterskull (who only blocks once), but can't we just swing back and negate the lifeloss? Or, if he has 2 goyfs and we are swinging with a flier, Doesn't Jitte accomplish much the same (negating the damage by gaining 4 life every turn?). Saying that L/S shrinks a goyf in some circumstances is, well, pretty circumstantial to say the least. It requires a connect against a board that has a goyf, so we need a flier (we have 8). Getting back revoker is fine for shrinking, but I board him out anyways, so that is only game 1 applicable (and again, pretty circumstantial, as he is already basically a mulligan against that deck, since they started not packing Lavamancers).
You mention that "L/S is good againt Burn decks (I'll agree that Bskull gets in there for one more lifelink)". Batterskull gets in for life turn 4 (against, essentially, a turn 4 combo deck), whereas you would need a (surviving) mother and 4 lands to do that with L/S, and they can of course just Bolt it then (or in response to equip), whereas no removal hits an active Batterskull (at least to my memory, Burn is not a popular deck where I play).
I guess the most prohibiting factor of Batterskull is the manacost (at least that's what I'm seeing in people's posts). It's hard to discuss briefly the situations where Batterskulls mana becomes prohibitive against L/S need of a creature and a turn to play it+turn to equip (in other words, time). I find it oftentimes that the surprise factor of a Sword hit is what makes it the most powerful, and that of course requires 5 mana just like Batterskull. Biting that into pieces is of course preferable at times, however if we are stuck on mana, we usually have better things to do than drop a Sword of Light and Shadow onto the board while our opponent is usually one-upping us (since they've got the mana!).I'll also add the fact that not a lot of stuff actually 'dies' in the beginning (as in, goes to the graveyard), and if it does, we are desperate for creatures to wield the swords to get back or missing friends. This usually puts a good Sword hit (lifegain + recursion of already lost creature) at the earliest on turn 4, and that is against one removal spell (that is not Swords or Path) and us having creatures turn 1 and 2. Not unlikely, but not especially likely either? And if our one-drop is Mother, and they don't kill it, then usually nothing dies for a while (unless it's with mass removal, in which case our sword again can look kind of lonely. And that is just comparing Batterskull to L/S straight up mana-wise, let's not forget the guy who brough Batterskull with him, and all the times he survives (or we have a mother, or we don't mind him dying because we are playing another threat the turn after, or we halted our opponent for spending a removal on a creature that already got us an advantage).
In short, I don't think it's close with Light and Shadow vs. Batterskull.
Moving on to Fire/Ice. You mention that the card draw is a great way to get out of a fateseal-lock with Jace. I agree 100 %. It does however require us to have a creature to connect with, and if we had that, we'd already be attacking Jace (or he'd be bouncing our guy, but then the lock is broken). This however, is the strongest pull for any of the swords over Jitte/Skull, I think. None of those match up particularly well against Jace, unless we have another creature and the Germ Token and 5 mana, which, I guess, is not that likely, but they resolved Jace (through manadisruption and fighting off our other creatures), so maybe we are not that far from the 5 mana equip cost. Also, we have 4 Mangara and 4 Revoker (because we are not playing Swords ), so we have plenty of answers to Jace before he becomes live too.
You mention it's useful against discard decks. Well if we have a guy to strap it on, sure, but at least Batterskull is a topdeck that comes with it's own body, whereas Swords is a rather measly one, if we have an empty board. But I will say that in this case, a Sword of F/I is better than both Jitte and Skull. Dedicated discard decks are, however, pretty rare in Legacy, so not something I would actively keep slots open for.
As for speeding up combo matches, Batterskull and Fire Ice do the same amount of damage, but Skull nets you life against Storm (we assume, here, that Mystic lives), which could be relevant. Givign pro blue is really good too though (on the right bear), so F/I has that going for it as well. You mention High Tide, but I haven't seen that deck in forever, so it is not much of a concern to me, but I'll agree that Sword shines better than Skull or Jitte here (Though we should have plenty of disruption for the matchup regardless...)
As for tribal, I quote you here: "Also, what merfolk decks have you been playing against that fold to jitte? Now that they have 20 lords (or whatever) I'm just not seeing how Jitte is the house you describe it to be. It's great against Gobs, and I know Thalia has first strike, however, F/I is great in both of these matches as well (more than Jitte against Fish, imo)".
'Fold' is probably too strong a word for Jitte's effect, unless we can keep them on 1 lord at a time (or get to attack twice). F/I doesn't kill anything either, though, unless we try to race them, which I suppose can be difficult against a "lord-heavy" draw. Also, they have Mutavauls to stop the bleeding (and Waste for our Ports?). Jitte will often cause you to lose a creature, and that is definetely a point against it, but our plan should be to go long against them, so just one Jitte hit means we never have to lose a creature again (F/I forces us to go into a race against them, which is not what our deck does best, but still, I agree, it's a viable option).
And against Goblins, the sword definetely shines more than Jitte, but they are usually so fast that I go for Skull first anyways just to stabilize, but that still puts F/I above Jitte in this matchup, I'll admit to that.
Then, you're general points about Jitte:
"My problems with Jitte are as follows":
It can be spell snare'd. - It's a 1-of against a field not particularly filled with SPell Snares, and moreover, our decks are filled with 2-drops, and Jitte is usually far from the most relevant card against decks packing Spell Snare, so Snare away! (and in counterpoint, I'll mention Spell Pierce as a more legitimate answer to Swords that to Jitte!).
It needs to be charged before it is remotely useful - That is a problem when we are facing bigger creatures, but on the other hand, having to connect means they can be rather dead in the wrong matchups (where protection is of little relevance). Evasion works for both equips (as well as Mother granting protection), so I don’t see any reason to discuss merits of that, although if I could choose, I would rather want the Jitte charging every turn than a Sword if I’m facing creatures of various kinds, as there is so much more utility in it. But that is probably matchup-dependant, which is something I won’t discuss here (already too much text!)
It's legendary quality and popularity make it short-lived – Thank god it’s legendary! Our deck has a hard time beating other Jittes!
It's useless if someone uses a pithing needle on it, even if equipped. – Agreed, although the situations are not that many in my opinion, in which we have had an active Sword/Jitte, they played the Needle, and we are not somehow still looking good.
It provides no inherent protection. – True, only when charged (then it can beat up Tarmogoyfs and perhaps even knights!).
...the same of which can't be said of the Swords.
“Conclusion: with 4 avengers in your main, why run fewer equips? She's our best sword holder, and she hits for 5 if she has a Sword on her. Sure, Bskull is powerful with mystic, but the germ is short-lived, the cost to bounce-replay is high no matter how you play it, and the equip cost is insane. I've played with bskull in my main before and I went back to 2 Swords and a jitte because I wanted a more consistent deck that provided me with the options to retain that consistency”.
As I’ve already said, in most matchups it is my opinion that I would rather have an Avenger wielding Jitte than Sword. It is not that I don’t want a 3rd equipment, but there are things I want more! Your point about the Germ being short-lived means they spent a removal, which was going to hit whoever we were trying to equip with our sword, costing us a lot of tempo in the process. Sword stays on for the next guy, but so does Skull (just give it a little more time!). About the equip cost, Swords are only a tad bit cheaper on the whole (and if we are hardcasting both to ‘equip’, we get the same effect from Skull as we do from a Sword).
Maybe it’s just my games, but I always plan for the long game, because this deck wants to get there usually, and in that long game, Batterskull always ends up playing a role, and does so at the expense of opponents’ resources that they could’ve spent on other things.
La versione breve è che Batterskull è >> L/S
in qualunque match up, quello che fa una creatura equipaggiata di spada lo farebbe anche una creatura equipaggiata di jitte ( e potenzialmente jitte è più utile perchè non richiede danno diretto all'avversario), e poi c'è un aspetto relativo alla strategia del mazzo.
Le spade hanno la funzione principale di "accorciare" la partita, mentre questo mazzo punta ad avere un late game molto solido, specie nella concezione di Thomas. Ed è per questo che un batterskull è >> di una spada, perchè allunga la partita, contro qualunque mazzo ( incluso storm, per cui fai sì gli stessi danni, ma lo obblighi a fare anche due spell in più - e non è poco)
Dare Hexproof o rapidità alle nostre creature può essere comodo, ma trovo che ci siano aspetti più importanti è più inerenti al gameplan del mazzo. Il mazzo deve essere versatile per adattarsi a chi si ha di fronte e a come sta giocando l'avversario: personalmente non trovo niente più versatile di una jitte, come equip.
Un piccolo appunto - quasi una curiosità personale - stavo pensando a come si potrebbe affrontare la nuova "combo" di thespian stage, e mi sono venuti in mente solo queste contromisure:
- Ago su thespian post side
- Creatura volante + mamma attiva
- Flicker/Warder/Mangara su Steely resolve e spiga
- Manadenial per no fargli avere le risorse per la combo coi porti + waste ( a questo piano post side si aggiungono i Rip)
Mi sto perdendo qualcosa?
Grazie delle vostre risposte, se vi andrà di rispondere, come sempre tutto quello che ho detto è imho.
EDIT: dimenticavo: una carta che potrebbe piacermi inserire in side è [card]Grafdigger's Cage[/card]
